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Post by rosiesmum on Aug 18, 2011 14:41:34 GMT
I wouls have been devastated to be caught without insurance, her cheque arrived yesterday so we can pay back the costs for the op. I hope my vet knows what he's doing - we'll see I guess but right now she uses her leg and wasn't at all beforehand. Yes, thank heavens for insurance  I know Jago's cost almost £1000 and that was about 8 years or so ago, it will be a lot more now I guess, you can understand why some people don't go for surgery if they have no pet insurance  I see JRT that hops around on 3 legs permanently, been like that for ages, sure he has adapted, but he looks a young dog, he should be on 4 legs! I do wonder what extra starin he is putting on other leg. Yes, it's amazing the immediate improvement with the leg, though my heart was in my mouth everytime I took him out to toilet. I hope I never have to go through it all again with a Chihuahua. I think we were more upset and affected by it than him! Never mind, all worth it, years on and his legs is great. Sure your girl will do well too, at least vet did not go for the kneecap groove! |
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Codi
Smooth Coat   
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Post by Codi on Aug 19, 2011 3:23:56 GMT
Geeez, you act like I'm a horrible owner. Seriously? Obviously if it is ever painful for her, or it affects the quality of her life, I would want to do surgery. But it's a 3 now, and she acts like NOTHING is wrong. If that never changes, if she always acts like it's fine, why would I put her through surgery when that is what would hurt her the most? Time will tell what will happen...
And weight DOES have something to do with it. I am saying she is light. She doesn't have a lot of weight on her knees, and for her size pup, she is very skinny. So that does lessen the load she is carrying, and it DOES matter.
Even the vet says it may never need to be fixed. I plan on taking her to an Orthopedic specialist and seeing what s/he thinks when she's about 18 months or so.
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Post by Kristi on Aug 19, 2011 5:31:36 GMT
Codi you aren't a horrible owner. When you bought your pups its unlikely you would have even known LP was a problem in the breed. I know I didn't know it even existed when I bought Oakley. I think you are one of the best chi owners there is b'c you are one who is trying to learn and trying to make informed decisions about your girls. Ivy walks around fine with ZERO pain and ZERO indication of a problem and she is a 3/4 in both knees. So I do believe it's not bothering her now, and frankly, if it doesn't bother Izzie in the future, 3 legs can easily carry the majority of her weight and she may never need the surgery. I didn't have a choice but to have Oakley's knee repaired because it was literally crushed to bits, but if she had one good knee, and one w/ a genetic problem, chances are I would have waited as long as I could have to see what really should be done. Vets make a shit ton of money off of LP surgery and its only about as complicated as a spay or neuter.
LP is NOT just a tendon problem, that vet is severely misinformed. In genetic grades 3/4 there IS NO KNEE GROOVE basically. Its a flat bone, instead. In that case you could tighten tendons until you were blue in the face and you know what? You wouldn't fix a damn thing. More often than not in genetic LP cases they have to create a groove, because there is not one, and there has to be one for proper knee function.
I think its important to remember that at the end of the day, family, human family, should take precedence. While we love our animals and they are very special parts of our lives, they don't fall in the same category as humans. Plenty of dogs live long, full lives, with problems that are painted as somewhat awful, and do fine.
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Post by Sarah on Aug 19, 2011 6:47:17 GMT
Take it how you like just from your post it came across like tough luck I'm not fixing it.
Izzy doesn't just have LP she has bowed legs too which as I stated before is a whole different ball game. I am not a specialist orthopaedic surgeon but every case has to be dealt with separately. Unless you vet is a specialist I wouldn't take everything he sys as gospel!
I am not surgery happy by any means and if it was one of mine I would do everything I can to try and manage without it unless it was a high grade!
Weight wise you wrote like you were using her weight as an excuse not to do surgery... That's how it came across to me. She's not tiny, shes average so what I was saying was it shouldn't have anything to do with it... If anything her being so slender would have a positive effect on her knees!! But realistically it's very unlikely it's not going to progress being that she is so young and it's so severe.
I agree with Kristi it is good you are researching but you can't make statements like you did without getting a repercussion.
Yes human family come first.... But if you are well aware of it being a possibility and know the cost then I would budget so when the time comes in a year or so I have the money as afterall aren't pets members of our families?
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Post by rosiesmum on Aug 19, 2011 8:29:48 GMT
LP is NOT just a tendon problem, that vet is severely misinformed. In genetic grades 3/4 there IS NO KNEE GROOVE basically. Its a flat bone, instead. In that case you could tighten tendons until you were blue in the face and you know what? You wouldn't fix a damn thing. More often than not in genetic LP cases they have to create a groove, because there is not one, and there has to be one for proper knee function. The specialist vet (one of the top orthopaedic vets in the UK) we see would disagree. The patella groove can become damaged if owner neglects to do surgery over a period of time, but he states it is the tendons/connective tissue that needs attention, not the groove. As I have said before, he said that much of his work is correcting patella surgery where well meaning vets have deepened groove ... I would urge anyone whose vet tells them that they are going to go in and simply deepen groove to get a second opinion. Obviously our understanding of this issue will differ on which specialist we deal with Personally I would recommend the vet we used as he has such a fab reputaion and Jago has done so well. I think patella surgery should be done at grade 3 and 4 as to ignore it means that damage to the actual kneecap might occur over time, making matters worse. But that's just my opinion of course and what I consider, given my understanding of condition and talking to specialist vet I think it's not just the short term we need to consider but the longer term implications of not going for surgery, as mentioned arthritis is likely to become an isuue, maybe sooner rather than later ... and that will not only cause pain to dog, but probably complicate later surgery  Whether owners/breeders want to believe it is genetic or caused by injury matters little, at grade 3 and 4 my thoughts are that dog should be assessed by specialist vet and surgery performed if advised. Sure it costs, but what price health and welfare of our dogs? Anyway just my thoughts. |
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Codi
Smooth Coat
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Post by Codi on Aug 19, 2011 12:41:14 GMT
Sarah, that's the thing with talking to people online only, unless you really know them, you can often take what they said wrong. Since you seem to assume the worst of me, you take what I say as bad as possible, which is usually never how I meant it. I love my pups more than anything, and we even started a "Surgery Fund" piggy bank thing for Izzie at our house when we found out about her LP. But I have talked to a few ppl that have dealt and researched LP a lot, and advice I've heard, is that unless they are in pain or both legs are affected, they wouldn't recommend surgery.
And in no way did I act like what the vet said was gospel, or the people I talked to. That's why I said I am going to talk with an ORTHO at about 18 months. Cuz the vet is not a specialist. If I thought she was, I would just stick with her and not take Izzie to an Ortho.. right?
And I know her being slender, if anything, would have a positive effect on her knees, that's the entire reason why I mentioned her weight at all... ? I know she is not a super itty bitty Chi, but for her size Chi, with her skeletal size and everything, she is as skinny as can be, naturally. So that's on our side.
Hopefully in a couple years we are in a better place financially to fork out $2k-$3k if the Ortho says she really needs surgery, but I certainly don't have that lying around now, and if I did I'd get a 2nd car!
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Post by Paula on Aug 19, 2011 13:16:07 GMT
This is what I was told as well. Roo had no groove at all. In a case like that it would be impossible to completely fix the leg without creating a groove as the patella would have no groove to ride in. I do believe transposing the tendons is certainly just as important, but if there is no groove then one has to be made. LP is NOT just a tendon problem, that vet is severely misinformed. In genetic grades 3/4 there IS NO KNEE GROOVE basically. Its a flat bone, instead. In that case you could tighten tendons until you were blue in the face and you know what? You wouldn't fix a damn thing. More often than not in genetic LP cases they have to create a groove, because there is not one, and there has to be one for proper knee function. |
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Post by Kristi on Aug 19, 2011 14:15:03 GMT
I spoke with three orthos about Oakley's knee. Extensively. And they all agreed that only an inexperienced or incapable vet would suggest doing any type of patella surgery without deepening the groove in 95% of cases, genetic or injury related. Yes, it is more traumatic initially for the dog...but in the long run, it gives the knee cap somewhere to stay. Obviously different doctors will have different opinions, but I've done a LOT of research on LP surgery and I don't want people thinking that it's simply a matter of tightening tendons. That was what our run-of-the-mill vet suggested, and I am so so glad we didn't allow her to do the surgery.
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